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Guff
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Last seen: 6 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 03/14/2017 - 16:33
Can't get car started, possible Cam/Crank Position Sensor Issue?

Hey Guys,

Alright, this is a bit of a long story, so bear with me. This car was tuned and running great since October 2015. About 5-6 months ago (Fall/Winter 2016), I had some trouble getting the car started. It was on E85 and it was cold out, so no surprise there. Unfortunately, while cranking the battery died, this led to the AEM's base firmware getting corrupted, and the Infinity not powering on. After working with Pyng (thanks again, dude) for a long while and looking for hardware issues that didn't exist, we finally figured out that the issue was with the Infinity, and so we put it in Flash Enable mode and reflashed the firmware. The Infinity booted up after that which was a relief, but the car still didn't want to start. It would only stumble a bit but never fire up. I thought that maybe the loaded calibration had been erased so the car needed to be set up again, so I went into the Setup Wizard, and set the Cam/Crank to the Supra default settings (After speaking to Pyng afterwards, I was told that the calibration was still on the ECU and the starting issue was with something else). The default settings got the car to fire up, but it would not idle without 10-15% throttle, and the car sounded like a rotary, aka it was not healthy. 

At this point winter began, so I decided to go ahead and put the car in the garage and start doing some mods, with the intention that we could get the car started and to my tuner come springtime. So over the last month or so, I ended up putting on a new turbo, new spark plugs, cleaned up the car, lots of small stuff. Now when I go to start the car, it won't fire at all. I hadn't changed any settings, but it just won't fire and won't even stumble, just cranks and cranks. The injectors are working fine, but there appears to be no spark. I checked the DLI and Igniter and they are in working order. The Cam Position and Crank Position sensors are reading the correct resistance when I test them. The coil packs are also reading the correct resistance and the plugs are brand new. I am getting 12v all the way to the coil packs, but still, the car will not start. In the Infinity software, I am seeing some Crank Timing Errors as well as occasional Cam Timing Errors. This has me thinking that there is an issue with one of the Position Sensors, but they appear to be reading fine in the log (I'm not totally sure about the Cam Duration numbers).

I have attached logs from a month or so back when the car was starting, but not idling, and logs from today with just cranking and no start. My question is: Is it possible to tell if there is a sensor issue (or any other issue) from these logs? I'm really racking my brain trying to figure out this problem, and can't for the life of me pinpoint what it is. 

Early Log:
itlog: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8VZdsZkpG0kcFRBMzgweHUtdFU
itssn: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8VZdsZkpG0kVHIwSERsV3pwSDQ

Today's Log:
itlog: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8VZdsZkpG0kakJ5eUlZWWd6RVE
itssn: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8VZdsZkpG0kZzlXdFlGcmRjeHc

Thanks!

AEM_NS
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Last seen: 12 min 39 sec ago
Joined: 06/06/2014 - 09:31
Those files are sessions, not

Those files are sessions, not logs. When you take a log, two files will be saved: a session file (.itssn) and a log file (.itlog). Please provide both files. There are many threads on this forum where we've covered the process to trouble shoot a no start condition. Please read some of those over.

Guff
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Last seen: 6 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 03/14/2017 - 16:33
Apologies, I've updated the

Apologies, I've updated the OP with the .itlogs as well. I've been going through the forums looking for an answer but I haven't been able to find one that's worked. I'll keep searching though. Thanks for your help.

AEM_NS
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Last seen: 12 min 39 sec ago
Joined: 06/06/2014 - 09:31
I don't see anything wrong in

I don't see anything wrong in your logs that's preventing the engine from starting. I'm guessing you still have an ignition setup problem. The errors you're getting are benign and expected - there is no outstanding cam/crank problem showing in your logs.

I don't normally comment on overall cal appearance but there are a lot of red flags in your cals/logs.  First, your cal is 99% the same as our provided base cal.  The ignition map is exactly the same and the VE table is nearly the same.  It's flattering to think our base cal is that good that a "tuned" cal is only needing to be 1% changed but I'm not so sure that's true.  Your AFRs in your first log are off the charts rich - so rich that I have a hard time believing their accurate but the corresponding injector pulse times are pretty large so perhaps the AFRs are correct.  In your latest log, there's something wrong with Lambda1 - it's just oscillating around .90 Lambda.  

Guff
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Last seen: 6 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 03/14/2017 - 16:33
Hmm, if that's the case, then

Hmm, if that's the case, then perhaps the calibration was indeed reset with the firmware corruption. Pyng insisted that it wasn't, but I didn't know how to tell. I'm assuming that the Lambda issue can't be causing the no start issue? There's a chance that the oxygen sensor has been fouled because I found that the old turbo's oil seals were blown when I removed it, but the sensor didn't look too bad, so I reused it. I'll keep looking for ignition hardware issues. Would you recommend I try using the diagnostic firmware on the infinity to test the coils, rather than cranking the car?

AEM_NS
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Last seen: 12 min 39 sec ago
Joined: 06/06/2014 - 09:31
It's not likely that the

It's not likely that the firmware actually became "corrupted". Having the voltage drop out but the ECU into a bad state and just needed resetting which is what reloading the firmware essentially does. But once you reload firmware to recover from being in a bad state, the cal that was previously loaded is wiped. Each time you load firmware, there is a " base" cal that gets loaded with it and it's basically the 2JZ base cal except I think AEM EPM is the default cam/crank selection. So if you never reloaded a saved copy of your tuned cal, then you're still running on the default cal. And no, a bad Lambda sensor will not cause a no start condition. Using the diag firmware to test the coil outputs is an excellent idea.

Guff
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Last seen: 6 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 03/14/2017 - 16:33
Unfortunately, I don't have a

Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of the calibration and my tuner unfortunately lost the backups from 2015 when I got tuned. That's not that big of a deal though as I needed a re-tune with the new turbo anyways. I'll load up the diagnostic firmware and start testing.

Thanks for your help!

Guff
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Last seen: 6 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 03/14/2017 - 16:33
Okay, so I did some testing

Okay, so I did some testing today with the diagnostics firmware. I found a few things. Firstly, the ECU does not appear to be sending a signal to the igniter (and thus the coil) when triggered in the Infinity Tuner Output Diagnostics window. With the igniter disconnected, I triggered each of the 6 coils and looked for a signal with a multimeter on each respective wire on the connector that goes into the igniter (i looked for + voltage, and ground, I'm assuming it's supposed to send 0-5v as per the notes, but I tested for ground as well just to be safe). No dice there. So, I thought perhaps there is an issue with the wiring harness between the ECU and the Igniter. But then I went to the ECU and tested each pin for a signal on the back of the ECU connector itself (I stuck a pin connected to a wire in through the back) and no dice there either. The ECU appears to not be triggering any signal for any of the 6 coils. 

So my question is this: Is it possible for the ECU to be physically defective in such a way that a specific set of outputs would not be able to trigger, while other outputs (fuel pumps, injectors, etc) are all functioning fine? Also is there any other issue (grounding issue perhaps) that could cause the coil outputs to not trigger?

Thanks again for your help.

Guff

Guff
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Last seen: 6 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 03/14/2017 - 16:33
Additionally, I tested 12v at

Additionally, I tested 12v at both sides of the coil pack wiring rather than one + and one -. This is only with the igniter connected though, so not sure what could be causing that. I'll start taking apart the wiring to double check that a some wires haven't come apart, but not sure why that would have randomly happened.

AEM_NS
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Last seen: 12 min 39 sec ago
Joined: 06/06/2014 - 09:31
A multimeter won't react

A multimeter won't react quickly enough to see the very short pulse that gets sent out for the ignition diagnostic test. A more appropriate tool would be an oscilloscope and the signal is 5v (signal high is coil dwell time and falling edge is where coil fires). Sure, the ECU may be damaged and the damage may be isolated to just the ignition outputs. Also, the results of your coil test are correct. Open circuit voltage across the coil should be 12v.

Guff
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Last seen: 6 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 03/14/2017 - 16:33
Makes sense, thanks for that.

Makes sense, thanks for that. Unfortunately, I don't have access to an Oscilloscope, and I don't think it's in my best interests to spend $500-1000 for one, so would it be possible to send the ECU to you guys so you guys can check it out? If you guys do find an issue, then that's good as we'll have solved our ignition woes, and if you don't find an issue, at least we can cross another thing off the list. Unfortunately, I'm at wit's end as I continue tearing the car apart but keep coming up empty-handed. 

AEM_NS
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Last seen: 12 min 39 sec ago
Joined: 06/06/2014 - 09:31
The inspection fee is $100 +

The inspection fee is $100 + shipping for ECU's that are out of warranty. You could also test the coil outputs with an LED - a normal incandescent noid light will not work. Also, there are pocket scopes on eBay for less than $100. A scope is a very handy tool to have around when dealing with EFI in general.

There's one last thing you can try doing if you're stuck using a multimeter. The diagnostic firmware has an adjustable coil dwell test time. The default value is 50,000 us/10 which gives you a 5ms pulse. 5,000,000 us/10 is a half second which might still be too short to pickup on a multimeter. 10,000,000 us/10 is one second. Whatever you do, MAKE SURE YOU DO NOT HAVE YOUR IGNITION CONNECTED IF TESTING AT LONGER DWELL TIMES. Doing this is to test the 5v output from the ECU with a multimeter only.  If you're going to test the ignition by firing the DLI/coil, change the dwell time back to 50,000 us/10.  

Guff
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Last seen: 6 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 03/14/2017 - 16:33
Thanks for the info! I'll

Thanks for the info! I'll double check all that but I think I made a break in the case, Moseby Boys Style! Pulled the crank pulley off and the trigger wheel was broken! It was spinning freely so the tack welds that hold it onto the timing gear must have broken. I'm assuming this very well could have caused all of the issues, so I'll be replacing that soon and seeing if that solves it.

Thanks for the help!

AEM_NS
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Joined: 06/06/2014 - 09:31
Good find however that still

Good find however that still doesn't explain why you'd get fuel but no spark.

Guff
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Last seen: 6 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 03/14/2017 - 16:33
You're right. Plus when I

You're right. Plus when I actually pulled the timing gear, the trigger wheel may have been broken but it actually hadn't moved too far off from where it was supposed to be. So the crank position sensor was likely reading close enough, which explains why it was syncing fine.

I'll continue testing the coil signal from the ECU.

Guff
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Last seen: 6 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 03/14/2017 - 16:33
Increasing the dwell time

Increasing the dwell time worked great to test the ECU Coil outputs. Everything checked out there and the ECU is perfect. I ended up opening up the wiring harness for the igniter and the issue ended up being poor wiring by the previous owner, likely when the HKS DLI was installed. I redid the wiring and the car started right up. So the car's all good now! 

Thanks for all your help! It's been much appreciated and I've learned quite a bit from all the troubleshooting we've been doing. 

AEM_NS
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Last seen: 12 min 39 sec ago
Joined: 06/06/2014 - 09:31
Sure thing. Glad you got it

Sure thing. Glad you got it sorted. More proof that a majority of EMS problems are wiring/setup/install related.