12 posts / 0 new
Last post
Ukfox89
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 1 week ago
Joined: 03/14/2017 - 12:08
AEM Infinity 8 w/ 2015-2017 Coyote PnP

Hi AEM

i am currently building a car with a 2015-2017 coyote aluminator crate engine. i have your AEM infinity 8 ecu with the PNP harness to be used standalone (without the ford control pack). 

I recieved my harness the other day and realized that the pig tail for the main harness (AEM PnP harness - coyote engine harness) is not the same as the 11-14. I can switch to an 11-14 harness no problem, the only thing i would have to change is the VVT pigtails which i can cut and solder to the 11-14 harness. 

My concern is, will the AEM ECU support the 15-17 valvetrain differneces? i have spoken with Ford Racing group to determine if there are any differences between the type of sensors used on the 15-17 compared to the 11-14. i have not recieved a response yet other than the intake and exhaust cams use the same sensors, but im not sure if they are referring to the cam sensors or the VVT sensors. 

What are my options or plan forward with this? is there a software update that can be made to make this ECU compatible with the new 15-17 engine?

My car is finished and i have many races planned for this year im hoping to make starting in mid april, im trying to find an option that allows me to use the AEM with the CD-7 dash and also not have to dismantle my engine and change hardware such as cams or lock out phasers (unless this can be done externally to the engine). The car is a dedicated drag race car, so most of the creature comforts im okay without. 

Thanks very much for your time!

 

AEM_NS
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 19 min ago
Joined: 06/06/2014 - 09:31
Currently, the Infinity only

Currently, the Infinity only supports the '11-'14 Coyote engine. We've not run a '15+ engine yet so we've not been able to quantify the differences between the two models but as we understand it, something with the VTC setup is different. This isn't the news you want to hear but we currently have no way of running the '15+ engine. You'd have to essentially make it '11-'14 spec in order to run it with the Infinity.

Supporting the '15+ Coyote is on our "radar" but it's not something we're currently working on or plan to work on very soon.  One last but not very good option is to run semi-sequential on the crank only with no VTC at all.  

Ukfox89
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 1 week ago
Joined: 03/14/2017 - 12:08
if the sensor types are the

if the sensor types are the same for the VTC then can it be a simple configuration change in the ECU setup? i understand with releasing product there are certain steps to be taken and has to be properly trial ran. This engine platform is 2 years old, and for the aftermarket enthusiast wanting a factory built engine, it seems the 15-17 aluminator engine is the only way to go other than having a custom engien built. 

I can run the ford control pack and replace the stock ecu with the AEm, but i run into the same road block. im still trying to find a deffinate answer to what my plan forward is, you say one last option but not a good one, what are the cons to running semi sequential on the crank with no VTC at all? like i said this is a drag car with a boosted applciation, mid range power is not my foremost concern as the car is WOT 99% of the time. 

Any help would be much appreciated, i have a lot of money tied up in the engine, making this platform work in my car and also the engine management system all together. 

Thanks for your quick reply, 

Ben

AEM_NS
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 19 min ago
Joined: 06/06/2014 - 09:31
It looks like it's going to

It looks like it's going to be a compromise one way or another. You'll either have to change all the engine hardware necessary to make your engine match the older spec (this is what others have had to do) or run on crank only in semi-sequential without VTC. The downside to running semi-seq without VTC is that you're running without VTC. The quad variable cams is basically what makes the Coyote motor so impressive but if this is a serious race effort, you won't be running stock cams which will require either limiting the cam phasers or locking them out entirely so it may become a moot point anyways. The only other downside is that you lose a little head room with your injectors since they'll be fired twice per cycle but that's fixed by sizing the injectors correctly.  Back to running race cams, if you're going to lose VTC because of big cams then you can modify one of the cams to have a single tooth and run sequential.  Or if leaving the stock cams or running small-ish cams, you can run crank only and wait until we support these newer motors.  Like I said, it's going to be a compromise because we don't support these motors yet unfortunately.

AEM_BB
AEM_BB's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 8 hours ago
Joined: 06/04/2014 - 11:53
As mentioned above, the 2015+

As mentioned above, the 2015+ engine in stock form is currently not supported. However, we have run a 2015+ Coyote engine on Infinity, but some extensive modifications were made to the engine to treat it as a '11-14 model. The following parts were changed on the engine:

  • Cam shafts
  • Cam phasers
  • Cam timing chains
  • Lower timing chain sprocket (2015 version may be compatible/equivalent)
  • The “Boss 302” cast-iron chain tensioner was recommended by some of our racers as they have found it to be a more robust part, although it is not necessary

With these changes, as well as a change to the 2015+ ECU header connector, we were able to run the engine successfully using the same base cal, with control of all 4 Ti-VCT cams.

Otherwise, as NS suggested, you can run the engine crank-only without VVC, or modify one of the trigger patterns on the camshaft (probably would recommend passenger-side intake cam since it's a Hall sensor signal) to only have a single "tooth". Doing so would allow you to run full sequential, but again without any VVC control. 

 

 

 

Ukfox89
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 1 week ago
Joined: 03/14/2017 - 12:08
the use of the VCT is not

the use of the VCT is not mandatory for me. for some of the classes i run during the race season, they require stock cams or stock blocks which limit which cams i can and can not run. So ill be keeping the 15-17 cams. Im looking for an option to keep the AEM and not use the ford racing control pack and also ideally not have to tear into the engine. It seems im left with two options

Option 1: buy 11-14 GT harness (which will plug into my AEM harness) and change out the cam phasers with a delete kit which will require removal of the timing cover and valve covers. This will allow the harness to plug in and essentially be an 11-14 engine. 

Option 2: buy 11-14 Gt harness and just leave the VCT unplugged? if leaving the VCT unplugged, how are the cams locked out? and is this a reliable way to leave it and be able to race the car. Like previously mentioned, im not worried about under the curve power or mid range as the car will be WOT 99% of the time and with the powerglide and turbo setup, power will be in the upper revs and controlable via other methods. 

Thanks, 

AEM_NS
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 19 min ago
Joined: 06/06/2014 - 09:31
It takes oil pressure to make

It takes oil pressure to make the VCT phasers move and this oil flow is controlled by the VCT actuators. If they're unplugged, no oil can enter the phasers therefore they should not move. That doesn't mean that they're locked and won't move at all but it does disable them from advancing/retarding like they would normally. Can you expect them to never move by simply unplugging the actuators? Nobody can answer that for you. Sounds like the safest bet would be to lock them out.

kyamcg
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 1 week ago
Joined: 05/16/2017 - 07:06
Ukfox89 wrote:

Ukfox89 wrote:

the use of the VCT is not mandatory for me. for some of the classes i run during the race season, they require stock cams or stock blocks which limit which cams i can and can not run. So ill be keeping the 15-17 cams. Im looking for an option to keep the AEM and not use the ford racing control pack and also ideally not have to tear into the engine. It seems im left with two options

Option 1: buy 11-14 GT harness (which will plug into my AEM harness) and change out the cam phasers with a delete kit which will require removal of the timing cover and valve covers. This will allow the harness to plug in and essentially be an 11-14 engine. 

Option 2: buy 11-14 Gt harness and just leave the VCT unplugged? if leaving the VCT unplugged, how are the cams locked out? and is this a reliable way to leave it and be able to race the car. Like previously mentioned, im not worried about under the curve power or mid range as the car will be WOT 99% of the time and with the powerglide and turbo setup, power will be in the upper revs and controlable via other methods. 

Thanks, 

Sorry to bump up an old thread, but may I ask what you ended up doing? I'm in the same situation right now. The engine is already installed in the car, so changing the VCT gears would be a lot of extra work. If possible, I'd like to just leave them unplugged until the 15-17 VCT is fully supported. 

q4stix
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 6 days ago
Joined: 06/01/2017 - 15:00
Here's my workings so far,

Here's my workings so far, but keep in mind I'm a user and not speaking for AEM. That means the standard 'take at your own risk' jargon and assume I know nothing because I'm just a screen name haha.

 

With the solenoid duty cycle at 0, either by the tables, unpluggin the phasers, or prefferably by deactivating the cam control in the cam wizard, the phasers should be set to their mid-lock position. There is a pin that physically locks into the cam gear to keep it from rotating. You can match this to either pulling apart the phaser and looking for yourself or by referencing the BorgWarner video showcasing the cam torque actuated, mid-lock phaser design (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LujjabNt87Y)

I have a 2015 engine using the 2011-2014 Ford engine harness with the AEM 30-3813 wiring harness but all of the stock 2015+ engine components. I can confirm that with the phasers disabled (as recommended to get the cam sync complete), the cams did not register any phase change once the motor is started up and revved a few times. I did that multiple times to confirm on my setup. By going this route, you *should* have a single cam angle tied to the mid position that will not move. This would be the same response as if you unplugged the solenoids. Unplugging the solenoids on a 2011-2014 engine will return the cams to the most advanced/retard positon and lock in place since 0 duty cycle or unplugged makes oil pressure in the lock pin oil channel. If you wanted a fixed cam angle other than the mid position, you'd need to buy phaser locks like the ones from MMR to set the angle.

Keep in mind that the 2011-2014 harness does not have provisions for the 2015+ charge motion valves in the intake which means you'll want to lock them out, especially with a turbo setup.

 

My goal now is to beat AEM to the punch and do some testing on my own engine with some revised cam phaser soleniod logic (if I can get that all figured out) to mimic the data that I've found. It won't be as pretty or as accurate at what AEM could provide, but I'm hoping for a 90% solution. I'll also be working on wiring in the CMCV at a later point. If/when AEM comes out with the new tune file, I'll swap back to the 2015+ engine harness and consider it all a fun learning experience :)

 

-Matt

q4stix
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 6 days ago
Joined: 06/01/2017 - 15:00
Looking into things, I think

Looking into things, I think I may be a lot more limited than I realized with the Infinity unit (at least with my level of access and/or knowledge).

There are a few things that I wanted to shift, but I ran into some limitations that AEM might be able to address and/or extend.

Since the 2011-2014 Gen 1 phasers run from 0 to 50 on the intake with failsafe limits set to -5 to 55, I wanted to shift the range to be -25-+25 relative to the locked position and modify the tables and failsafe limits to account for the +25 degree shift and 'neutral' position. The cam target tables allow values both positive and negative, but it looks like the phaser failsafe limits can only be set from -5 to 0 as the min and 0 to whatever as the max. Is there a way to extend the -5 degree min limit lower?

 

Alternatively, I thought about changing the reference trigger to be 25 degrees earlier so in the locked position the Infinity considers the cam already phased. My concern is that has a bigger impact than the obvious and something else may get thrown off.

 

If email or a phone conversation is a better method to relay this and enable the use of Gen 2 phasers, then I'm more than willing to invest the time, research, and my engine to get this option going for everyone (with any testing liability on me).

-Matt

AEM_NS
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 19 min ago
Joined: 06/06/2014 - 09:31
I appreciate the time you put

I appreciate the time you put into researching this. It's honesty more than I had been able to do. I hadn't found any info on how these new phasers work but I really hadn't look all that hard. That video pretty well explains everything and how it works. Unfortunately I think you're really only scratching the surface with the failsafe allowances and there's going to be a lot more to it than just making the failsafes happy. It seems the process to control the phaser involves an unlock "command" which is accomplished by sending a certain duty to the phaser for some period of time and then getting the phaser to move to it's target position based on another duty value. This functionality doesn't exist in the current Infinity VVC controls and unique/special controls would need to be developed (by us) in order to truly get this working the correct way. I don't know that you're really going to get an acceptably functional work around using the existing controls. Opening up the failsafe allowances is an easy one but rebuilding the core VVC advance/retard control function is much more involved.

Our development tasks are pretty well laid out for us well in advance and we can't easily drop those to move onto different ones.  This new Coyote VVC control is on our radar but current scheduling doesn't look to support much or any attention to it in the immediate future.  We'll see if it's possible but I woudn't hold your breath.  

q4stix
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 6 days ago
Joined: 06/01/2017 - 15:00
Not trying to beat a dead

Not trying to beat a dead horse here, just trying to make use of the whole reason I went with AEM to begin with (and not let a sunset happen on all future Coyote engines)...

The lock: The lock pin is considered passive because oil moves it into place when the soleniod duty cycle is 0 or it's unplugged. This should be exactly like the 2011-2014 cam phases from the diagrams I've seen referenced. Going to the roughly 53% duty cycle like the 2011 phasers and tune keeps the phaser in the steady/held position like the current phaser and unlocks the phaser so that should be no different. The PID function you have implented for feedback control of the soleniod  Once unlocked, the phasers operate identically to advance and retard. The only difference I can find is where the phaser neutral position is located.

 

My 'hope'/request: To receive a configuration that allows me to change the failsafes and then I'll adjust the tune on my end. If it's easy to do, solves my curiosity as an engineer, and gets me out of your hair, maybe it's a win for everyone :)

If it works, awesome. If it doesn't, then I'll have to hope like the rest of the users that AEM will eventually support Ford's current offerings. I'll also have to hunt for a way to make the Gen 1 phasers work with Gen 2 cams through a mechanical solution.

 

Thanks for responding this much, hearing me out, and supporting the community! I really do look forward to using your products to their fullest extent and would love to continue using even more of your products in the future.

-Matt